Doubles League

What's happenin' in Wichita

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jump_putter
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Location: hoping i'm outside 33'

Re: Doubles League

Postby jump_putter » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:41 pm

Doubles HH 10/12/10
Red Course

1. Wiggins/Don Z. -9
2. Crispin/??? -7
3. Several tied at -6
-Ronnie Unruh #20079

Chucker9
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Re: Doubles League

Postby Chucker9 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:12 pm

thanks for finishing for me Ron. I still need that sheet if you still have it.
God,Family,Discgolf,DenverBroncos,Sooners...Says it all for me.

Chucker9
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Re: Doubles League

Postby Chucker9 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:46 am

Doubler @ HH 2/26
17 players
Micah and Junod 1st
Ring and JD 2nd
Jerry and Kelly 3rd

No ACE's. 4 sign ups for the ForeFathers.
God,Family,Discgolf,DenverBroncos,Sooners...Says it all for me.

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Schoen-hopper
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Re: Doubles League

Postby Schoen-hopper » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:13 am

The lefty's win it. Micah is solid. Probably our best player who plays am.

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Re: Doubles League

Postby Schoen-hopper » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:15 pm

3/17/11
Oak Park
Short Tees

23 players

Another great night for golf. On the breezy side, but not as windy as projected.

Bo C. & Mark W.: -9
Ben M. & Bryan G.: -9
Curtis B. & Brad C.: -8
Ben W. & Russ T.: -8
Ron U. & Caliman: -8

Ace fund goes to $354

Hit the bucket on hole 2; I am getting close.

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Schoen-hopper
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Re: Doubles League

Postby Schoen-hopper » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:46 pm

4/14/11

Oak, Red Tees
18 Players

Some good shooting in the wind.

Brandon Nelson & Russ Horning: -9
Ben Maass & Jeff Ring: -9

Jeff Ring with an ACE on hole 13 long!

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Schoen-hopper
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Re: Doubles League

Postby Schoen-hopper » Fri May 13, 2011 7:59 am

5/12/11
Oak Park
Short Tees

30 Players
75 Degrees, Light winds

Brandon Nelson & Jerry Sherwood: -9-3= -12
Mike Schoenhofer & Martin Gutierrez: -9-3= -12
Curtis Broadhurst & Andy Horning: -11
Howard & Brad Cox: -5-6= -11

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Schoen-hopper
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Re: Doubles League

Postby Schoen-hopper » Fri May 13, 2011 8:23 am

I'd like to make doubles as fair as possible for everybody. That's why we use the 3 strokes per amateur player rule. It works out that pros and ams have about an equal chance for making it into the money. I think most leagues just do random flip, or move the same people down or up to do a pro am.

Though overall, the 3 strokes per am works out pretty well, I've noticed some nights, like on all shorts nights, it doesn't seem fair to some. Take last night for example. Though 4 pros and 4 ams cashed, including a pro-pro team, 2 pro-am teams, and an am-am team, there were 19 pros signed up and only 11 ams. There was a pro-pro team that finished -10 and didn't cash. This has happened to myself a few times before.

Ams need less strokes for short configurations. What if we used 3 strokes for red or blue, but only 2 for short tees, and 4 for long tees? Ams would essentially get double the amout of strokes from short to long tees. If pins were long at HH, like they are now, and 2 ams pair up for all long tees, 8 strokes might be very reasonable. But when the pins are short and the winds light, giving out 8 strokes might seem rediculous. So by changing things, we might make them worse.

A less drastic change would be just to change the amount of strokes for am-am teams by one. Give them 5 instead of 6 on short tees, and 7 instead of 6 on long tees. While this might be more fair, data has shown that the most dangerous team in the pro-am team. It's just the dynamics of best-shot doubles. Pro-pro teams only play slightly better (diminishing return), while am-am teams play considerably worse (often don't get a drive within putting range). So changing the am-am team would help some, but it's more often the pro-am teams that take some of the pro-pro teams out of the cash.

I like the idea of trying out different doubles formats. To date, switch doubles is the funnest format I've ever played. But here is also very interesting that would be possibly the fairest format possible. Handicap doubles. We've done it once before. All players have a handicap. Your team members add their handicap together and then divide by 3. A 1 handicap pro and an 8 handicap am would get (1+8/3) 3 strokes. An 8 handicap am and a 10 handicap am would get (8+10/3) 6 strokes. Makes it fair for every player.

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Re: Doubles League

Postby Schoen-hopper » Fri May 13, 2011 9:44 am

After reading this, a solution came to me. Not sure if it would be supported or not.

Instead of making a full stroke per am player adjustment for long or short tees, make half a stroke adjustment. Like giving an am-am team 5 strokes for short tees instead of 6: essentially that is 2.5 strokes per player. Just extend this to the pro-am teams, where it is perhaps more important. For short tees, they would get 2.5 strokes instead of 3.

Might seem confusing or complicated. That's why I don't think it would be supported. But not so bad in my opinion, and if it keeps the pros from getting screwed over when it is all short, yet keeps the ams competitive when it is all long....

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Schoen-hopper
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Re: Doubles League

Postby Schoen-hopper » Fri May 13, 2011 11:21 am

One glitch in this idea would be the scenario of the pro-am team on long tees. They shouldn't get 3.5 strokes. Even if the am-am team gets 7. The pro-pro team would lose to a pro-am team with 3.5 far more often than an am-am team with 7 on all longs.

Here's what a table could look like for "compensation for skill level and course difficulty level".

Pro-Pro.... Pro-Am.... Am-Am....

Short: 0.... 2.5.... 5....
Red: 0.... 3.... 6....
Blue: 0.... 3.... 6....
Long: 0.... 3.... 7....

If this is too much to remember, perhaps there could just be an "all short rule". Am's get 2.5 strokes apiece instead of 3 when the course is set all short.

pironix
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Re: Doubles League

Postby pironix » Fri May 13, 2011 1:32 pm

Mike - I do have to agree, like we talked about last night, that it's frustrating as hell to shoot the round of your life and still not get anything out of it...

I'm not sure what the best solution is but you are definitely right that when we are playing all shorts those am-pro teams (and even am-am) are definitely at an advantage for the reasons you mentioned. Ams obviously have a better chance at the birdie with the lessened distance, and if you have a pro putting...

I like the idea of removing a stroke when we are playing shorts. In theory playing the red or blue course should level things out since the way our courses are setup they alternate between long and short. I don't know the history of how teams typically finish but I assume that the strokes on those two configs have worked out pretty well.

For the longs, any idea how the normal 3/6 strokes work out?

I do appreciate you trying to figure out a fair solution. There are several leagues that don't even try to a handicap - what you draw is what you get. I don't necessarily agree with it because it can be frustrating to know you don't even stand a chance...

jump_putter
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Re: Doubles League

Postby jump_putter » Sat May 14, 2011 6:34 pm

Or just start having pro doubles and am doubles and give nobody strokes......In the deep past, the club was played without handicaps and we all survived..
-Ronnie Unruh #20079

crispinthomascarrasco
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Re: Doubles League

Postby crispinthomascarrasco » Sat May 14, 2011 9:28 pm

pro dubs and am dubs would be cool to throw in the mix, but alternate that with pro/am dubs because ams like to play with pros to better their games.

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Schoen-hopper
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Re: Doubles League

Postby Schoen-hopper » Sat May 14, 2011 11:06 pm

Good ideas. I would like to try different doubles formats, for sure. Just hard to find formats to keep most players happy. One way to curb that would be post what format you are playing ahead of time. Problem with that is that sometimes conditions don't warrant the use of a certain format. For example, you wouldn't want to play handicap doubles if someone had just set a handicap on all long. You wouldn't want to play am-am doubles if only 6 ams show up. Which formats are good enough to throw into the mix? Here are some I like. I'm sure we wouldn't want to throw into unfamiliar formats too often.

-Pro Am Doubles
-Random Flip w/ strokes (2.5 instead of 3 per am on all short nights)
-Divisional Doubles (pro teams and am teams)
-Switch Doubles
-Handicap Doubles
-California

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Re: Doubles League

Postby Schoen-hopper » Thu May 26, 2011 10:19 pm

5/26/11
Oak Park
Blue Tees

26 Players (9 pros, 17 ams)

Ben Maass & Jehramy Heckman: -7-3=10
Taylor Camp & Howard: -3-6=-9
Mike & Ryan: -5-3=-8
Curtis & Austin: -5-3=-8


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