Derby Course

[smitty]

Hole 9 has a ton of trees. I threw a perfect drive tonight and still had to scramble for a 3. I think you HAVE to play this hole as left of the creek OB. If not, you will kill someone playing hole 5.


Here is my thinking.

Holes 16, 17, 18 you call the Fence OB. That is a bad call IMO. Most people are can get to hole 16, so it isn't a big deal. Hole 17 98% of the people are going to be either in Pond or in the trees. If you are in the trees, it is not and easy out. If you gun for the pin from the trees you will probably end up in the pond. Being in the trees is penalty enough. Another problem is that the Fence is missing in many places. Same with 18. There are places the fence is missing on both sides. Nobody is going to throw out of the fairway to gain an advantage. If you are out of it, you are screwed already. I think the ceiling could be trimmed up a little also, but not a real need at this time.


I think if we ever have 50 people or more playing a tourney it is going to be very cramped on Holes 2/3/5 will be dangerous. 8 will be hyzering in on peoples heads teeing on 9. People on 9 will be killing people on 5 and 5 will be killing people on 9.

The good thing is that not many of these shots are going to be direct hits. They will be bouncing off of trees.

All in all, great job. I cannot wait until I get the chance to design a course where they allow me to "carve out" my fairways. All of them that I have a hand in, I have been told "use what you have".

[Schoen-hopper]

This course Rocked! It blew my expectations away. Just for the reason of how rough and unmaintained the unfinished area was before this week. Totally different course now! Not only new baskets and signs, but I can tell you a LOT of trees were removed and a TON of trees were trimmed. Barbed wire fence removed in many areas. The entire course was mowed... short! It played very nice tonight. It's very obvious that it was a lot of work. Thanks Bill, Marcus, & Derby! Nice to see the designers vision finally shine through, how many years later? Thats why they get paid the big bucks. Wait, I mean, that's why they volunteer hundreds of hours. For all of our benefit. Thanks! Thanks also to the ACDGC, who bought the baskets. When Derby pours the tee-pads, this good course will be a great course.

[Schoen-hopper]

First impressions as tonight was my first time playing the new holes. I'll give my thoughts, hole by hole. Keep in mind the course was freshly trimmed, no extra water on the course, and pretty much Zero Wind.

Hole 1: 250- righty hyzer. Righty might bird it 2-3 times more often, but lefty does have enough room to work a flick or anny. The tree line on the right and big tree in the middle make it interesting. Pro/ Advanced par 2.5. Need a bridge to hole 2.

Hole 2: 320- NEW. Low ceiling righty hyzer. Similar to one, but lower, longer, and more trees in play. Plays at least a half shot tougher for lefty. Righty should have a good look at birdie.

Hole 3: 252- NEW. Low ceiling straight route with trees early that could turn the score into a bogey. There is a righty-hyzer route (I birdied it), but while it is an easier shot out of the initial trees, the trees close to the green may block this shot. With either shot, there is the chance of going long into the creek, which may or may not be dry. The way we played tonight, all water was OB. Great hole!

Hole 4: 325. It seems like this tee was moved a little to the left. Not sure though. Another righty hyzer, with a tree in the middle of the escape route that blocks a good number of shots.

Hole 5: 330- NEW. This one is low ceiling with trees to deal with the whole way. Slighty better for lefty, though Crispin parked it with a wicked low anny line. Righty has a chance of hyzering out early and going in or across the OB creek. Fantastic hole!

Hole 6: 220- NEW. Interesting hole. The fairway goes slighty downhill, then up. Slighty left, then hard right. Some jungle to every side and a little bit of thick stuff right before the green. Love the trees near the green. Righty gets a taste of the bitter medicine here as they have to make a very accurate shot to get close. But it's only 220', so it's not like a perfect shot is necessary. I threw a flick shot that got a tick off a tree and went long instead of parked. It's not that hard. I don't think it should be trimmed up any. The big problem here is that for a good percentage of the time, much of this hole will be underwater. Some kind of major dirt work would be needed to fix this situation which we will deal with before long. Perhaps, with some BIG bridges, most of this problem could be fixed. It is true that only the shots hitting trees will end up in the water when the creek floods down there.

Hole 7: 400- NEW. This was the hole with a hug pile of cut trees blocking the escape route from the trees. We played the tee over a 100' shorter and to the right of the brush pile. That made for an interesting lefty hyzer, righty anny. The real hole here is going to play tough! Uphill shot out of the trees into the open and then the basket sets on top of a hill, with a downslope to the left and a wall of trees to the right. This will be too long for about anyone to get a 2, as it plays longer than 400'. I'm wondering if it is quite long enough to play as a good par 3.5 though?

Hole 8: 321- NEW. Wide open first 2/3's and then 2 gaps in the trees. If you hit the gap, you should have some kind of a putt. 9's tee is a little close to 8's green. Shots shouldn't go long enough to matter, but could. At least those on 9 have a good view of what's coming. Heard some comments on 2 & 3 being too close together, but I didn't see that.

Hole 9: 562- NEW. After talking with Bill and finding out it was his intention to play this hole (as with 5, 10, & 11) with across the creek being OB, I thought we owed it to him to go for it and see how it went. After playing it, I can say that keeping the left side as OB will be more safe for those on hole 5, as well as adding a lot of character. What an intense golf hole!! Very intimidating. There are tons of crazy choices one is faces with when playing this hole, espescially if the drive goes bad. Some very high numbers are possible. The sweet spot in the fairway appeared to me, to be a 20' wide landing on top of the hill to the right, but not too far. There is a straight tunnel down the hill from there. If one does bail out far enough right, there is a big open hyzer shot in. But for those shots that don't quite make it over there (by the OB sidewalk), attempting to throw the hyzer will be a bad idea. Some are really going to cuss this hole. With the creek right next to the green, you could even throw your putt OB. But this hole is a True Challenge, and should reward 2 perfect shots with a birdie 3. I'd say it plays about par 4.5 for advanced players. We needed a hole like this!

Hole 10: 360. This hole is not 360. Maybe 260? This hole is a great example of how easy it is to notice how much trimming to the park has been done. It's a beauty now. We played to the left of the creek as OB for the first time. I love the scoring spread on this hole. 2 or 4 probably happen almost as often as 3.

Hole 11: 260. Short righty hyzer. With that early tree, lefty is going to have a tough time. Perhaps half a stroke tougher for lefty.

Hole 12: 463. Not this far as the crow flies, but one who flirts too closely with the trees could easily end up in the 6' wide creek. Huge righty-anny hole or a really big over the tree top shot. There is a decent landing area for those playing safely short of the creek. Certainly a hole that sticks in your mind. The ditch behind the pin was dry, but we would have played it OB if it was wet. We need to find out exactly what water on the course is permanent and what is temporary and if it should be casual. From the way it looks, there are 4 inlets to the creek on the course: One running across 4 and 5's fairway and over by 1 and 3's greens. One on hole 9 to the West. One on hole 12 to the West. And one between basket 4 and basket 11 that isn't really in play.

Hole 13: 250. Pretty shot. Short righty hyzer, with a low lefty route. Road and tree line beyond makes it more interesting.

Hole 14: 445. This hole is SUBTLE. (subtle). Uphill open drive exposed to the wind. The green slopes off severly toward the pond. A big drive means an easy upshot (which is a big bonus), or maybe even a putt. But it could also mean a splash down. The back yards to the right make for a questionable OB line and they do come in play.

Hole 15: 245. Righty hyzer over the water short and right and with OB road left and long. The tee was behind the cottonwood, which makes an impossible lefty shot even more impossible. While righty should get a birdie, left has to worry about just not losing a disc. Fun hole though.

Hole 16: 200- NEW. The hole isn't new, but the distance to the pin has been shortened dramatically. It doesn't seem like it's quite 200', but if it is, the old placement was maybe 280' or so. I don't like it, because it doesn't fit in with the rest of the course. I threw about as bad of a shot as I could and stopped when I rolled into the thick grass about 10' from the pin. I did notice the fence was gone here and a lot of vegetation had been removed, which made it more interesting for shots going high/long left. My big gripe is that already over 10 times as much ace money has been given out at Derby vs. how much has come in as compared to Herman Hill & Oak Park. No doubt the Derby course is challenging enough and I REALLY LIKE the diversity of both tree density and length on this course. But this hole is probably less than 200' and wide open.

Hole 17: 428- NEW. Not new, just now the tee is backed up about 70'. As much as I didn't like this hole before, I like it much less now. In practice, I played with a couple guys and we all said we just wanted to play safe. They both threw in the water. One threw in on his 2nd shot and I don't think they played any more after that. I landed safe and skipped into the woods. Searched for 5 minutes and didn't find it. Found it coming back on 18. It would have been a 15' pitch out that would have been lucky to 4. The safe landing area on this hole is about 5-10' wide. Anything left skips into the dense trees and anything right rolls into the nasty water. As hard as this hole is, imagine it for a lefty! Imagine it with wind. Imagine it with a headwind! Imagine it if you were an amateur. For pros who can throw 400+ consistent controlled distance, the hole may be fine. But 95+% of us do not fit into that category. The problem isn't the distance. It's the fact that there is no safe place to throw. It's just as hard to control a short shot here as it is a longer one. A shorter play just gets punished more.

I can see what the thinking was behind the change in 16 & 17. They played a little too similarly before. I think both holes are unreasonable now. I'd suggest splitting the difference. Make 16 about 35' or so longer (still a very short hole), while clearing out more woods to make it more enjoyable yet possibly more challenging. Then some shots that go long right might be retreivable from the rock strip between the ponds. An idea for 17's tee would be to add an area to the sidewalk on the rock strip. Might be unsafe with the rocks there, and Derby probably wouldn't go for it, but it sounds interesting. Even if the tee was just moved back forward 35' from the current spot, it would be a big improvement.

Hole 18: 646. Love it or hate it, it's one bad mother. Low ceiling and dead straight hole. Very difficult to both stay below the trees and stay up on the fairway, which is the old road, with a lower ditch to both sides that the shots love to roll in to. The bad thing about this hole is that you are very likely to get an unpredicable kick from the trees you are almost certain to contact. Many bad shots get saved and dropped on the fairway while good shots almost done with their flight will kick straight sideways and across the barbed wire fence OB. I'd agree that this fence is a bad deal. Now that it doesn't run the full length, I don't think it should be OB. I still think that a player should get 2m away from it. Maybe if they cross it, they could take their 2m from the other side, though that wouldn't help their situation any. I'd guess this one at a pro/ advanced par 4.5 during the thick of summer. Take out the OB and some of the limbs and it's easily just a par 4.

[smitty]

What about moving 17 around the corner and over the edge of the pond? There is 1 big tree on the edge of the pond. Most people don't know that over the pond is safe. I threw the 2nd worst shot of my life according to 2K and ended up over the pond. It would give the lefty a hyzer over the pond and the righty could play it normal and then have a tougher upshot.

I am with Mike. I don't care for this hole at all, and I can probably drive it to the pin.

I don't know if the grass below the fences is park property or not? If you do move it over there more discs (90% more) will be in the peoples yard.

You could also move the tee to the right. This would give the Righty a more direct hyzer at the pin, and the Lefty and easier hyzer to the right side of the pond.

The only real reason for this hole is to be a "betweener" hole, so you can play 18. 18 in my opinion is about 80 feet to long. My guess is nobody got a 3 on it all nite. Most people got a 4, and the rest were 5 or higher.

There are a ton of killer holes on this course. Holes that will test your skill, that is for sure.

[2]

Smitty has a good idea about 17, you could clear some of that hedge row from the end coming back south( I would be happy to do that, I have a chain saw- and put the basket on the road!! It would make 18 a little shorter, and if you say "You wouldnt be able to see the basket? Well you cant anyway so.....great idea Smitty!! Theres going to be so many shots going in to that pond, and so many people going in after them.. I dont think the people that live in the houses around that area want to see people swimming there!! Just some little improvments, not trying to step on anybodys toes... Once again, Bill has done a wonderful job for the few amount of people that could help!!

[Schoen-hopper]

Here is some scoring data from tonights round. First time playing some of the holes for most. But no wind. In the thick of summer. But trimmed up really well. These numbers all hinge on the players recording their scores on the correct number.

In the open division(s), 13 players probably averaged anywhere from 920-1010 rated, with most somewhere close to 950, or about the advanced skill level. Averaging somewhere around 3 strokes on our handicap system.

In the handicap division (13 included), handicaps ranged from 6-12 strokes. I'd guess the average player rating would be about 880, or roughly intermediate level, but there can be a large gap between skill levels in this division.

Hole 1
Pro Ave: 2.5
2's: 6
3's: 7
Am Ave: 3.2
3's: 10
4's: 3

Hole 2
Pro Ave: 2.8
2's: 3
3's: 10
Am Ave: 3.4
3's: 9
4's: 3
5's: 1

Hole 3
Pro Ave: 2.7
2's: 5
3's: 7
4's: 1
Am Ave: 3.2
2's: 1
3's: 8
4's: 4

Hole 4
Pro Ave: 2.9
2's: 3
3's: 8
4's: 2
Am Ave: 3.3
2's: 1
3's: 8
4's: 3
6's: 1

Hole 5
Pro Ave: 3.1
2's: 2
3's: 8
4's: 3
Am Ave: 3.8
3's: 4
4's: 7
5's: 2

Hole 6
Pro Ave: 3.1
3's: 12
4's: 1
Am Ave: 3.3
3's: 10
4's: 3

Hole 7 (actual tee not played)
Pro Ave: 2.6
2's: 5
3's: 8
Am Ave: 3.2
2's: 1
3's: 9
4's: 3

Hole 8
Pro Ave: 2.8
2's: 4
3's: 7
4's: 2
Am Ave: 3.2
3's: 11
4's: 2

Hole 9
Pro Ave: 4.9
3's: 2
4's: 3
5's: 2
6's: 4
7's: 1
Other: 1
Am Ave: 4.9
4's: 4
5's: 6
6's: 3

Hole 10
Pro Ave: 3.1
2's: 4
3's: 6
4's: 1
5's: 2
Am Ave: 3.5
2's: 3
3's: 3
4's: 5

Hole 11
Pro Ave: 2.8
2's: 3
3's: 9
4's: 1
Am Ave: 3.5
3's: 9
4's: 2
5's: 2

Hole 12
Pro Ave: 3.2
2's: 1
3's: 9
4's: 2
5's: 1
Am Ave: 3.8
3's: 4
4's: 8
5's: 1

Hole 13
Pro Ave: 2.8
2's: 4
3's: 7
4's: 2
Am Ave: 3.2
3's: 10
4's: 3

Hole 14
Pro Ave: 3.4
3's: 9
4's: 3
5's: 1
Am Ave: 4.2
3's: 3
4's: 4
5's: 6

Hole 15
Pro Ave: 2.6
2's: 7
3's: 4
4's: 2
Am Ave: 2.7
2's: 6
3's: 5
4's: 2

Hole 16
Pro Ave: 2.6
2's: 6
3's: 6
4's: 1
Am Ave: 2.5
2's: 7
3's: 5
4's: 1

Hole 17
Pro Ave: 3.8
3's: 5
4's: 6
5's: 1
6's: 1
Am Ave: 4.6
3's: 3
4's: 3
5's: 4
6's: 2
7's: 1

Hole 18
Pro Ave: 4.7
4's: 8
5's: 2
6's: 2
7's: 1
Am Ave: 5.0
4's: 4
5's: 5
6's: 4

[smitty]

Jack-

I was actually saying move the basket over the edge of the pond.

Another option could be to put the basket for 16 onto the pond dam. This would make it a 2 shot hole. Then make 18 shorter by moving the tee up, keeping the same shot.

A lefty/flicker is still hosed.

[Schoen-hopper]

I made my review before I saw hole the numbers played out.

Lots of holes with great scoring spread, even with the small field. 3, 5, 9, 10, 12, 14, 15, 17, 18 all producing 3 different numbers, usually for both divisions. That is a sign of good design. Spread on 10, as expected, was ideal.

Hole 6 was almost all pars. Sure seems like this should be birdied some of the time. I think it will get easier in the winter time, but it will be crazy playing that hole after a rain.

[disclizard]

I never did like the holes along the pond befor when they were hoels #7 and #8 they were just way un fair for the newest of beginners, leftys and any one who flicks. Now the holes are just a plain ole crap shoot for those players. I do think that you could keep #16 short and just make a better landing for it and then plant a tree in front make it more difficult and to block some Aces. I like the idea for #17 move the tee forward and use retaining wall blocks to move the tee out closer to the pond then cut out a good opening before the last couple trees on that tree line . A hole to shoot for and move the basket to the edge of that road . But still keep it long just not as long. Move the tee pad up for hole# 18 about 40 feet or so .

[jump_putter]

Here's the opinion of a guy who rarely plays anymore:

Course was great! Challenging (maybe a lil more than normal cuz i hadnt played in a year), technical and most of all, fair. This course really is a equalizer. I have below average distance these days (375-425 is huge for me anymore), and felt like if I had been in practice and on top of my game, I could compete with the longest of players on this golf course. Course is a lil more like my natural game of "ball" golf where positioning and putting is as important as just getting up there and bombing it as far as you can.......The only negatives I took away from the night were; as other ppl have said, a few tees are too close to baskets and could be dangerous for tournament play. #9 is ridiculous with the creek as OB, Im all for making a hole that might say "par 3", but in essence is a par 4 or 5 (all holes as par 3 has always been a thorn in my craw as a ball golfer, but that argument for another day), but I had to lay up twice before being able to see the hole and then put it in the creek 15 feet from the basket. As most course designers would prob agree, you dont multiple trouble spots on a hole to make it hard, just one or maybe 2 will keep the scores reasonable on a hole. But with this one you got low ceiling, OB/trees right, OB left, trees in the MIDDLE of the "fairway" and a basket with water left and long.....hmmm. And finally, #16 is a lil short but,...I might have been the only one to like 17 as is,a true risk/reward hole, maybe move the tee up 30 ft and right towards the water, but its okay with me, minus the OB on the fence. (again 1 or two features per hole is more than sufficent). 18 is great hole, I dont mind OB on one side or the other, but NOT BOTH! Should be shortened 50-75 ft and trimmed up a lil, but other than that is a good hole.....
WOW! that was much longer than intended. see ya outside the circles!!!!!!

[disclizard]

I don't mind risk/reward hole either but when the risk is a lost disk in the water that a double penalty . you dont just take a drop for going OB but you also are out 15-20 bucks for a disc. I can't afford to lose discs just because some one else (course designer) thinks it fun. I'm sorry to step on toes here but not every one can throw a bomb . not every one can control a disk like the pros and course designers. I bring alot of new people into the sport and alot of beginners. They all hate the pond holes because they lose discs and they are forced to lay up from what you would already say is a short throw. My friend rob has a throw that is about 3/4 of what mine is on a good day ( thats not much) and he has to lay up 4-5 times now on 17 just so he doesnt have to lose ANOTHER disc in the pond. Those holes are just not fair.

It is nice to have another 18 hole course near by but to be honest it would be better as a 14 hole course. they just tried to put to much in such a small place. It like tring to put every thing in a Walmart into a QT just isn't going to work.

[jump_putter]

If the golf course is too difficult, then simply dont play it. Sorry to be THAT guy, but i kinda am (most who know me the best know that is true)....This is why in "ball golf" there are multiple tees for all skill levels on all holes. Funding and space prevents disc golf from having this luxury.

[Schoen-hopper]

A rule on hole 18 at Oak is that if you don't think you can clear the water, you can throw from the drop zone, throwing your third shot. It's basically the same as if you threw your disc 3 ft. to the right of the long tee into the water, except you don't have to dry off your disc. Lots of people don't know this. Some that do know it still refuse to play it this way.

[2]

Jump-putter? Where the hell have you been? Good to hear from ya........ I liked the NEW DERBY ...... Just because that creek shot says BRING IT!!! Lol Let me know when you can get out again, Ill meet cha!!!

[DUH]

He came to league yesterday. Where you been?