Kansas Disc Golf Association

Well, if we are going to have public debate before and after league, we might as well have it here as well. Here there is more time to consider one's reply. First, the existing rules for California.

Pro's playing California are equated with the Pro-Am Team. Ams playing California who have a handicap of 8 or higher will get 3 extra strokes subtracted. Ams with a handicap of 11 or higher get the 3 extra strokes plus Full Cali. Those cashing playing California get paid double.

California is played when there is an odd number of players, with the odd man playing Cali. The intention is to give the player with Cali an equal chance to win compared with the other teams playing doubles. California is played with 1 liberal mulligan per hole. Meaning a player can play one extra shot at any time on a given hole, and gets to decide which subsequent shot to play. Full Cali means a player gets 2 throws for every shot and gets to pick which subsequent shot to play.

The debate seems to lie in that the Cali player is equated to the pro-am team. I said tonight that this is nothing new for our club and that we have done it for the last 10 years. Actually, if I'm not mistaken, it has been played like this for at least 13 years, back to before I started playing, back when others, including Buddy, were running league. We used to pro-am all the doubles events. This worked out good in that ams always got a pro partner. But the same ams had to move up to play pro week after week. Pros and Cons.

Random Flip Doubles (with strokes) started just a few years ago. When confronted with situations like 6 pros and 18 ams, I started asking myself if I really wanted to force that many amateurs to play pro. So this format was established with the intention of both making it more fair, and mixing it up a bit. Pros get pro partners occasionally, but must play really well to cash. Ams getting am partners must battle and cannot ride the pro's coattail. But we still play pro-am format whenever possible.

When we first started this format, I looked at a lot of doubles scores and made a decision. I saw that the pro-pro team shot about 3 strokes better than the pro-am team, who was roughly 3 strokes better than the am-am team. Slightly more seperation with the pro-am versus am-am. And scores being more seperated on longer layouts (advantage pro) and less so on shorter ones (advantage am). So I said pro-am teams would get no strokes, so that transition would be seamless, but that the pro-pro team would add 3 strokes and the am-am team would subtract 3 strokes from the gross scores.

This produced some pretty close scores, especially near the top, so I was pleased. But before long, I was hearing complaints. "We should never, ever have to add strokes". People didn't understand what their net score was.

So finally, to win the popularity of the crowd, I switched the scoring so that we could say "3 strokes per am". Pro-pro teams would get no strokes, Pro-am teams would get 3. Am-am teams 6. This produced it's own confusion after doing it the old way for over a year. But the scores in relation to each other didn't change any at all, they just shifted everyone 3 to the good.

As far as the California player is concerned, with pro-am format where all teams are pro-am, there are no strokes given for the Cali player. But when we play Random Flip, since all the teams net 3 strokes less, they also do the same. They retain their equivalence with the pro-am team and get 3 strokes subtracted to their gross score.
I hear a lot of “The Cali Gets 3 strokes?!” It just blows my mind because nothing has ever changed except for the decision to play Random Flip when the head counts are uneven between pro and am.

I’ve heard the plea that the Pro Cali is more similar to the pro-pro team than the pro-am team. This should narrow the argument. First: history. In all the years, did we ever make the pro-cali add 3 strokes to make it “fair” for the rest of the pro-am teams? Nope. Second: intuition. Does it seem like one extra pro shot per hole might equate with 2 or 3 extra am shots? Perhaps yes. Does it seem like one extra pro shot per hole might equate with 2 or 3 extra pro shots? Doesn’t seem so. And if Cali with it's "strokes" is so advantageous, how come so few people choose to take a shot at it?

Third: results. With random flip, I’ve seen the “average” pro cali cash about a third of the time, or perhaps just a little better. Which are the same chances any of the rest of the average players have. Am players do not play California that often, but when they do, even with 3 extra strokes, or 6 total, their chances of cashing are less than average.
Sometimes I give all the players a chance to “opt out” of the chance for playing California. This way they are not stuck with it, as many wishing to play doubles do not find this as fun, and may even find it frustrating. With the “opting out” in play, it’s usually the better pros who want to be “in it” for a chance of becoming Cali. When this happens, the Cali’s chance of cashing is improved. Not significantly enough to make it unfair in my opinion, certainly less than 1 of 2.

But answer me this: What is the better-than-average pro’s chances of cashing when not playing Cali? Answer: Better than average!! That’s one of the things I like about the system. It rewards the top players, while giving all players a decent chance. Those playing Cali have a chance to make a lot more than their entry fee. It adds some excitement. Ours is the only league that I know of that pays in single and pays out double.

My continual goal is to make league as fair for all players as possible. When money is involved, things have to be both fair and consistent, or people get unhappy quickly. So any changes have to be carefully thought out.

I encourage people to give ideas and helpful feedback. Here is my problem. Every week there is a different gripe. If the low handicapped amateur wins, the system doesn't give the high handicappers a chance and they should be playing pro. If a high handicapper wins, then they got way too many strokes. Sometimes players argue their handicap even though I painstakingly go through these after each singles league. With doubles, there are just as many complaints. "You let him play am? You're giving the kid 5 strokes? How did the top am and top pro get paired up? Why are there strokes in the first place??"

Why the strokes, eh? We could do random flip period. Many leagues do. Either they lack the organization to establish handicaps for judging player skill or the pro guy running league just wants to make enough money to make it worth his time. Keeping things fair and fun for the amateurs is important. Most of our members are amateurs. All pros started out as amateurs.

With any change that is made, there is going to be a benefit for some and a detriment to others. The questions is what is the most fair for everybody.

Do we want to change the Cali system? What would be the result? Change doubles structure in general? Could separate everyone into 4 groups. Team A players with D players and B with C. Who would play for cash and who credits? And how would the top pros like this? No matter how fair you try to make it there will always be flaws. And I suppose there will always be complaints.

I honestly would like to listen to suggestions. The problem with suggestion though, is if they are weighed and decided against, it appears they weren't listened to in the first place. I have some ideas but I know there are always others that I have not thought of and that may be better. Here are a couple so far that I think we should try.

-A solution for the Cali situation is not giving average or marginal pros the option to "opt out" of playing Cali. Make all the pros draw for Cali. This means that an average skilled pro cali will cash an average amount of times. As opposed to better than average pros cashing more than average with Cali.

-Players with handicaps of 4 or 5 or less, and who have at least 3 rounds in, should be playing pro for doubles. With singles, there is a handicap system, so these players are taking their chances either way. But it's not fair for them to play am and dominate with a pro partner. A handicap of 6 or 7 is borderline.

-When short tees are played and random flip doubles is used, each am will get 2.5 strokes instead of 3. I don't see this as confusing, but if it that is the general consensus, we can use 2 strokes per am instead of 3. With 3 strokes per am, am-am teams are too heavily favored on all-short nights.

-Mixing up formats. I think half the reason people get so upset over nickles and dimes is that it stops being fun when it's the same thing every week. There are some other formats other than best shot. With any format, there are some challenges to make it as fair as possible for everyone, but we will do our best.

Some other ideas.

-Move some people up or down so that we can do a pro-am flip. But let them keep their pro or am status and get their strokes. That way there is only 2 types of teams and not 3. In other words, you are going to either have pro-ams and am-ams. Or pro-ams and pro-pros. But you won't have all 3. Only thing about doing it this way is that if you move the best ams up and still give them strokes, it would give them an advantage. So it would have to be a random pick, not the best. Don't know if this would be popular or not.

-Since we have pros with handicaps ranging from positive 1 to about 7 or 8, we could do two different pro divisions for doubles. And two different am divisions. 0 strokes for A pros, 1 stroke for B pros, 2 strokes for C ams, 3 strokes for D ams. This would probably work out pretty fair, but the complication factor grows.... People don't like it when they don't understand what scores they are competing against.

-Since there is a bigger disparity between pro-am and am-am than there is between pro-am and pro-pro, we could say pro am teams get 2 strokes and am-am teams get 5. Again, perhaps a little bit more fair, but not as simple as 3 strokes per am, so there will be confusion.

I'm willing to try some of this stuff out. I just know that no matter what, there will be grumbling.

just an idea but... What about having pros play dubs with pros and am's play with am's and at pay out time the top pro teams get paid out only what the pro's put in and the top am's get paid only what the am's put in. In other words keep the am's from having to compeete against the pros. this could also be done on singles. in dubs when there is a cali whether it is pro or am they are compeating against there class. This is just an idea don't know if it would piss any one off.

Ron suggested the same thing. I'm willing to give that a go one of these nights. The drawbacks to this format is.
*Ams don't get a pro partner. That's what ams like most about doubles.
*Payout would be cut in half. Actually more than that for one half or the other. Say there are 6 pros and 14 ams. The pros are playing for $20 first place (each) in regular doubles. They'd be playing for $10 with this format and 2nd place would get nothing.
*There is more chance of stacked teams. Any given pro-am team can usually beat any given pro-am team. But put 2 zero handicappers against 2 6 handicappers. I don't know, but I don't think my chances seem as good.
But like I said, it's worth a shot. I think this would be a decent format when there are lots of people in each division.

well one of the reasons the Am's like getting a pro is because they are playing against team with pro's if thats not a worry than I don't think many if any would care.
As far as the pay out they can look at it this way . the proes dont like the idea of strokes getting taken off of Am / AM or Am / Pro scores because some times they win the pay outs. Well this way the pros are always getting a pay out and they have to compeete against just them selves for it. same with AM's .

Also as a AM my self it does get frustrating when You go out there and throw some dang nice shots but hardley ever get to play from them because the pro out distanced you. I guess its from going to tourney and seeing the pros and Am's get split up all the time. Sure I do like to go out and watch the pro's play and throw some of those amazing shots. In fact I wish at tourneys they would mix up the pro's and Am's on the tee pads more on the first round so we can see some of those great shots. But its a whole other thing to compete against them.

I know the pro's say "well get better and move up" or some thing to that effect. I have been trying to get better and move up now for 15 years. Most people at ITC know I do have a pretty good up shot . I have alot of control on my shorter shots. But when it comes to distance in the drive i just can't compete with the pros. Before my shoulder got blown out I used to play in the open division . I know that there are other AM's that have the same kinds of problems yet diffent to. Some just can't putt to save there lives. some have a real hard time throwing those get out of trouble shots . like a flick from out behind some thing when they are normaly a back hand thrower. things like that keep the Am's from wanting to try to compete with the pro's

What every you decide though Its not going to stop the people that play in league from doing so. But what you decide may bring more people in if the change is more fair for one division or another. Also no matter what is decided some one won't be happy and will bITCh, thats life in ITC.

-Move some people up or down so that we can do a pro-am flip. But let them keep their pro or am status and get their strokes. That way there is only 2 types of teams and not 3. In other words, you are going to either have pro-ams and am-ams. Or pro-ams and pro-pros. But you won't have all 3. Only thing about doing it this way is that if you move the best ams up and still give them strokes, it would give them an advantage. So it would have to be a random pick, not the best. Don't know if this would be popular or not.

-Since there is a bigger disparity between pro-am and am-am than there is between pro-am and pro-pro, we could say pro am teams get 2 strokes and am-am teams get 5. Again, perhaps a little bit more fair, but not as simple as 3 strokes per am, so there will be confusion.

-A solution for the Cali situation is not giving average or marginal pros the option to "opt out" of playing Cali. Make all the pros draw for Cali. This means that an average skilled pro cali will cash an average amount of times. As opposed to better than average pros cashing more than average with Cali.

-Players with handicaps of 4 or 5 or less, and who have at least 3 rounds in, should be playing pro for doubles. With singles, there is a handicap system, so these players are taking their chances either way. But it's not fair for them to play am and dominate with a pro partner. A handicap of 6 or 7 is borderline.

These are the adjustments I like best. We'll use cards for determining teams, with the most pro-am teams as possible. The 2 and 5 strokes instead of 3 and 6 will also solve the short tee problem. I'll run this all over with Speer before we roll with it.